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Retro Review: Sons of Mogh

Posted by Michelle - 10/05/13 at 07:05 pm


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Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Season: 04 Episode: 15 (s04e15)

Original US airdate: 02/12/1996

Kurn, an outcast among Klingons because of Worf’s behavior, asks his brother to perform a ritual execution so that he may die honorably.

Plot Summary: While Worf practices Klingon martial arts with Jadzia, he is summoned by Odo to deal with a visiting drunken Klingon who turns out to be Kurn, Worf’s brother. Because Worf’s dishonor after siding with the Federation during the Dominion conflict has made Kurn an outcast among the Klingons, Kurn wants Worf to give him an honorable death. Worf reluctantly agrees, but when Quark tells Dax that he sold Worf a particular type of Klingon incense, she guesses what he is planning and races with Odo to rescue Kurn just as Worf delivers the death blow. Bashir saves Kurn’s life and Sisko threatens to dismiss Worf from Starfleet, but the captain has bigger Klingon problems, for Kira and O’Brien have discovered cloaked ships engaging in supposed military exercises that turn out to be a pretext for setting a minefield to cut off the wormhole and the Dominion – plus Bajor and DS9 – from the rest of the Federation. While Kurn accepts a job on Odo’s security force, Kira and O’Brien come across a damaged Klingon ship and tow its injured crew back to the station. Still hoping to die, Kurn allows himself to be attacked by a freighter captain, but when he learns that Worf knows about the minefield, he agrees to help disable it by beaming in disguise onto the damaged Klingon ship after Worf convinces him that Gowron’s plan is both dishonorable and a threat to the Empire. While finding the coordinates of the mines, Kurn is forced to shoot a Klingon who discovers him, which he feels adds to his disgrace. Worf is upset to learn that the Klingon officer planned to kill him and expresses his fear that he has become too human to live among his own people. When Worf discovers that Kurn is planning to kill himself and die in dishonor rather than live as an outcast, he contacts a family friend and asks Bashir to erase Kurn’s genetic markers and familial memories so that Kurn can be told he has amnesia and is a member of the House of Noggra. Kurn departs as Rodek, an honored Klingon who does not remember Worf, while Worf gives up his last tie to the House of Mogh and the Klingon Empire.

Analysis: Poor Worf. First the writers uproot him from the Enterprise to put him on Deep Space Nine, then they decide to sever his ties to all the Klingons who have been important to him in the past – he has made an enemy of Gowron, and his brother is so miserable about the family’s shame that Kurn doesn’t want to live. I’ve always been ambivalent about the violent, patriarchal group-think of Klingon honor, so it’s nice to see an episode that shows I’m not the only one, since the inherent schisms in Klingon society are exposed. Worf and Kurn are supposed to be loyal to the Council, but when Gowron is leading the Empire into folly, their first obligation is to the Klingon people, not their leaders, who get their positions of power via inheritance, sanctioned violence against those who previously held them, or sucking up to those at the top…neither a logical nor a stable situation. Yet for all my disdain for many aspects of Klingon society, it’s presented to us as a given. This is a civilization that has been thriving for centuries. While it may be appropriate for Sisko the Starfleet captain to yell at Worf for carrying out a ritual that fits Starfleet’s definition of murder, which should never have taken place on a space station that follows Bajoran law, I’m not sure it’s appropriate for Sisko the Federation citizen to judge a time-honored Klingon ritual that holds great spiritual meaning for the participants – or, if he must judge it as Worf’s commanding officer, to say things like, “I don’t give a damn about Klingon beliefs, rituals or custom.” The Federation and the Klingons may be near to a state of war at the moment, but I’m not sure how much leeway that gives the Federation to tell Klingons who live within its borders what to do, and the subject becomes even thornier when they are allies.

Like the Prime Directive, the autonomy of Federation worlds is a topic on which Star Trek has been vague and contradictory. Yes, there have to be some standards enforced for everyone living within the Federation regardless of their backgrounds – no murder, no theft, no rape, the same basic laws that are widely agreed upon as the hallmarks of civilized societies in our own era, though what counts as “murder” and “theft” are often up for wide debate – but how does the Federation deal with issues that have been thorny for centuries before and clearly haven’t been solved in the 24th century? Do member worlds have to agree to common standards on assisted suicide, infant body modification (everything from circumcision to cybernetic implants), euthanasia, augmentation, abortion? We have not seen any sort of consistency; we have seen planets where people’s sexuality has been repressed without more outrage than Riker’s personal bitterness over a lover brainwashed to a planetary norm, and we have seen planets where Kirk’s moral outrage over a rigidly hierarchical society became the justification for society-changing intervention. Which brings us back to the Klingons. It is extremely rare for anyone besides a Klingon woman to express outrage at the lower status of Klingon women, yet it is extremely common for Starfleet officers to make cracks about Klingon customs and Klingon rituals, and Sisko’s “I don’t give a damn” isn’t far off Riker’s reaction when Worf, the only Klingon on the Enterprise, asks for help ending his life rather than living in a permanent state of paralysis. There’s both inconsistency and hostility toward Worf and Quark both; it’s no wonder Bajorans are so ambivalent about coming under the Federation’s umbrella of protection on the one hand and oversight on the other. What is perhaps most disturbing is the degree to which Worf considers the dominant values not Federation, but human. He always speaks of his inner conflict as occurring between his Klingon and Human backgrounds. Are Federation values still so identified with “Human” values?

I would have loved to see some discussion of this among Sisko’s crew, which is the most diverse of any on Star Trek. Despite being an outsider by birth, Odo is the one most determined to follow the letter of Federation law, while Dax, with her long experience of Klingon culture, argues with Sisko that he needs to understand Klingon beliefs. (The fact that the episode hints even at this early stage that she may be romantically interested in Worf unhappily undercuts her long history as Curzon of immersion in Klingon culture.) The scenes in which the brothers debate the meaning of Klingon honor and their obligations both to their leaders and to their principles are moving yet feel redundant; it’s much of the same debate from “Ethics” when Worf wanted to die rather than live without the strength of his body, rather than the much bigger issues of why so many supposedly honorable Klingons act like bullies and selfish brats. In the end, Worf is unhappy to find himself back in the state in which we first met him – a Klingon raised on Earth, entirely detached from the heritage by which he is judged by everyone who sees his forehead ridges. With Alexander living outside Klingon culture, Kurn turned into a stranger, and the other best-known Klingon in the franchise at the time, B’Elanna Torres, being half-human, I get the feeling that even the writers aren’t sure what to do with the Klingons and the difficulties they pose except as combatants. The Federation used to fight the Klingons from the outside, killing one another until the Organian Peace Treaty made a hot war cold; now the struggle seems internal, as the Federation assimilates people like Worf and Alexander and Torres. Even Kira doesn’t seem to regard them as enemy combatants, despite the fact that they blew up a delegation of Bajoran diplomats last week and Dukat invited her on a personal mission of vengeance. Again, I say, poor Worf. No wonder he doesn’t know who he’s supposed to be.

Tags:

  • Guest

    “While it may be appropriate for Sisko the Starfleet captain to yell at Worf for carrying out a ritual that fits Starfleet’s definition of murder, which should never have taken place on a space station that follows Bajoran law, I’m not sure it’s appropriate for Sisko the Federation citizen to judge a time-honored Klingon ritual that holds great spiritual meaning for the participants – or, if he must judge it as Worf’s commanding officer, to say things like, “I don’t give a damn about Klingon beliefs, rituals or custom.” The Federation and the Klingons may be near to a state of war at the moment, but I’m not sure how much leeway that gives the Federation to tell Klingons who live within its borders what to do, and the subject becomes even thornier when they are allies.”

    Sisko is Worf’s commanding officer. Seems to me he can express his opinion of conduct unbecoming an officer and not necessarily have that speak directly to Federation laws on the subject.

  • Mike

    I think the bigger question she’s pointing to isn’t necessarily directly linked to the Klingons as much as it is to the idea of heterogeneous peoples within the Federation. What if the Klingons were to one day want to be in the Federation. Would they have to give up the religious and cultural mores and traditions they’ve always had and adopt a “human” perspective? It goes back to the dinner sequence in Undiscovered Country, where they point to inalienable human rights… and Azetbur throws it back in their faces: inalienable… HUMAN rights… Even then, 80 years earlier, that question of humanities dominion of the Federation, and what that implies and flat out determines, is important… and we, as fans of Star Trek, might do well to realize that even the Roddenberry vision was, at the base of it, very narrow. As Michelle points out, the Prime Directive was never designed to prevent Kirk from doing what was right… even though the Prime Directive, by its very nature, suggests that our opinion as to right and wrong may not be accurate, and that the natural progression of people is the default… except for Kirk, or Picard, or Sisko anytime it didn’t really suit their sensibilities… and the Prime Directive being violated like that for outside cultures, imagine the changes demanded on cultures inside the Federation in order to line up with human dogma… Within Star Trek, humans are portrayed as the sine qua non of the quadrant. Without us, it all turns to crap… It’s all about human exceptionalism, which is just a metaphor for Roddenberry’s American exceptionalism beliefs… after all, let’s be honest, the Federation isn’t just made up of humans and aliens exemplifying human culture… they’re exemplifying American culture… Uhura was from Africa… could’ve fooled me. So, Star Trek has always been hypocritical, to an extent, but, then again, it also has to be… otherwise, it wouldn’t really be saying anything at all.

  • SJStar

    Utter tripe by Mike here. It is clear you won’t know what the prime directive was about if it slapped you in the head!
    The only hypocritical thing here is your POV. Forget poor Worf, what about poor jackass Mike!

  • SJStar

    Eh? The prime directive only applies to pre-warp cultures, in which everyone doesn’t interfere with their development. Even in Star Trek Into Darkness this issue is first up in the movie, and Kirk and Spock are immediately demoted for it. Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about!

  • SJStar

    Are these not Starfleet laws not necessity Federation laws? Worf’s commanding officer is to be surely Starfleet first.

    Also “Thou shall not kill” is a universal ethical law, and though you are allowed to kill when defend oneself or euthanise suffering but only when you are left with no other options. Even the Klingons mostly, follow this too, but all see this in defending honour. I.e. Glory is honour.

  • Mike

    You really are a special kind of stupid… one reserved for a special few.

    I’ll explain it for you, because you clearly need it broken down…

    The Prime Directive, in fact, doesn’t only apply to pre-warp cultures, genius. The Prime Directive was the cover the Federation used to not intervene on behalf of Bajor for half a century… The Prime Directive does apply to pre-warp civilizations, it also applies to the internal workings of foreign powers, ie the Klingons, the Cardassians, the Romulans, the Breen, etc. That you don’t know that speaks volumes, and that you think the concept and purpose of the Prime Directive doesn’t impact the people OF the Federation is silly…

    After all, MY POINT SPECIFICALLY was that if the Klingons ever considered membership, they’d go no farther than the Prime Directive, which deals with outsiders, to know that they would never actually be accepted within the Federation itself… Because the Federation isn’t a giant piece of multi-cultural paradise, Azetbur was more right than perhaps you’re willing to admit… but the Federation is clearly a human club or a human imitation club. The Vulcans as they were weren’t good enough. The Andorians as they were, weren’t good enough. The Tellarites were just too surly, the Denobulans too flighty. And all of that suggests the Federation is a melting pot, one wherein the “alienness” of others is ground out by the humanness of Earthers that pervade the Federation.

    Sure, thou shall not kill is a constant in human mores… And? You’re hardly proving your point instead of mine that the Federation wouldn’t accept Klingons as members… Klingons don’t as much care about corporeal life and death as much as 24th century humans because by the 24th century, humans are far more worried about their corporeal lives than their spiritual ones. Klingons, by the 24th century, have retained their faith… as such, they hold certain beliefs and maintain certain customs that we don’t understand. If humans are still circumcising their children because 3500 years earlier a jew in the desert got an infection, I doubt Klingons would understand that either… But that’s the point, isn’t it? The Prime Directive, you know, the part that has nothing to do with Pre-Warp civilizations, genius? Yeah, that part of it… Well, it suggests that all cultures should be able to develop and continue naturally. I doubt the Klingons, the Vulcans, the Andorians, or the Tellarites, if asked, would really accept that as reality, as much as it’s the spin of the 24th century… Because, as I said, it’s not a multicultural society, it’s a melting pot…

    But, feel free to fundamentally misunderstand me, my point, the English it’s written in, and the material it’s based upon… It’d be par for your course.

  • Mike

    Do you even watch Star Trek? If you think the Prime Directive only applies to pre-warp civilizations, I’m guessing you don’t. Typical.

  • Mike

    And that’s the whole point of the Prime Directive with regard to space faring races. They have a natural progression of their society. They have standards, and practices, and beliefs, and rituals. And those things aren’t to be dismissed or thrown out.

    But you’re being contradictory here… Either the Federation is the wonderful place of acceptance and understanding, or it isn’t. It’s okay for the Bajorans to worship their Prophets, but only because it doesn’t bother the Starfleet personnel? Nope, sorry, not how it works. They can worship the Prophets, because they’re free to do so. If their culture has ritual suicide, then it has it. That judeo-christian human society doesn’t have it, hell, even the Japanese have it. So, “universal” is a pretty laughable comment to make about ethics, rights, and personal beliefs, since, even on Earth, an assisted ritual suicide can, even today, be seen as an honorable and preferred way of exit… But, you’re so smart, I’m sure you accounted for that when you said “universal”.

    Why do you have to continue showing what a dumbass you are?

  • Mike

    Anyone want to bet how long before SJStar throws another of his fits and begs the mods to delete all his posts from this thread? My guess? As soon as he actually looks up what the Prime Directive is and realizes how stupid he’s actually been… That moment of realization has classically been the trigger for the deletions… I can’t wait!

  • Enterprise1981

    It was never explicitly stated the Prime Directive only applies to pre-warp civilizations. On many an occasion, the PD was invoked as a reason not to get involved in the internal affairs of the Klingons, the Romulans, the Bajorans, or the Cardassians. True, the words Prime Directive were never used in reference to the Klingon civil war or the Feds not getting more directly involved in the Bajoran-Cardassian conflict, but that’s the gist of the directive when invoked in reference to dealing with pre-warp societies. Of course, there’s been plenty of ambiguity as to what constitutes a pre-warp society. By the implied definition, present day humanity is pre-warp civilization. What about the Ornarans and the Brekkians, who from what we could tell could only travel within their own solar system? Or the Bandi of Deneb Four who do business with other races, yet few of them choose to leave their home planet.

  • Enterprise1981

    As a Starfleet officer, Worf is sworn to conduct himself in a certain manner. That was the gist of Picard’s speech after Worf killed Duras. In that case, Worf deliberately went AWOL. Had Worf been allowed to take a leave of absence to perform the ritual, all of Sisko’s posturing wouldn’t have been necessary–he did basically give Worf tacit permission to kill Gowron later in the series, meaning he sometimes does “give a damn about Klingon beliefs, rituals, or customs.” Worf was in violation of station and Starfleet regulations, so Sisko was well within his rights to throw the book at him. In fact, even non-Starfleet and Militia military offiers are held to that same code of conduct–Martok being thrown in the brig for shoving one of his crew off the second level of the Promenade as a disciplinary measure. I would imagine such expectations are less stringent with civilians permanently residing on the station. Quark is allowed to run his business according to Ferengi law and tradition as long he doesn’t violate too many station regs. And he did seem to get a lot of leeway, considering how many times he smuggled contraband, yet only spent a grand total of one episode in the brig.

    Michelle does raise a good point, however, about the seeming heterogeneity of the human-dominated Federation. If the Klingons or the Ferengi were to someday become UFP members, who is to say how many of their cultural idiosyncrasies they would have to give up? It’s anyone’s guess really. On the one hand, a return to a rigid caste system would have disqualified Bajor as a Federation member as it conflicts with the right of individual self-determination. On the other hand, Vulcans still perform ritual suicide. Supposing that such a ritual involved the assistance of a family member who was in Starfleet, that officer would probably request a leave of absence rather perform the ritual on a Starfleet ship or base. In Worf’s case, though, he couldn’t perform the mok-to-vor within Klingon jurisdiction since he wasn’t welcome anywhere in the Klingon Empire.

  • SJStar

    According to Memory Alpha http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Pre-warp_civilization;

    Pre-warp civilization is a term used by the Federation to define any society that has not yet discovered and utilized faster-than-light space travel like the warp drive. Pre-warp cultures can range in technology level from extremely primitive to that of Earth in the mid-21st century. (Star Trek: First Contact)

    The Prime Directive of the Federation interdicts any disturbance of such civilizations, including any form of contact, until a culture has independently proven its warp-capability. Otherwise, any involvement in the development of pre-warp societies could result in the contamination of their culture, thereby altering their natural evolution. Usually pre-warp civilizations are limited to their homeworld. However, their technical abilities can be sophisticated enough to expand throughout their solar system. (ENT: “Dear Doctor”; Star Trek: Insurrection)

    Also see http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Prime_Directive

    Moreover, “Star Trek Into Darkness”, and they specifically say “pre-warp civilisations.” Moreover, according to STID, Spock creates the prime directive.

    It cannot get more direct obvious than this!

    Hence, Mike is wrong!

  • SJStar

    No, you are incorrect. See above.

  • SJStar

    Again, you are wrong. See comment to Enterprise1981 for the evidence.

  • SJStar

    My comment here says nothing at all about the Prime Directive.

    Michele said; “Yes, there have to be some standards enforced for everyone living within the Federation regardless of their backgrounds – no murder, no theft, no rape, the same basic laws that are widely agreed upon as the hallmarks of civilized societies in our own era, though what counts as “murder” and “theft” are often up for wide debate.

    As Michelle sates here, “Starfleet’s definition of murder…”, and as I point out to “Guest”, this is not necessarily Federation law. Hence, I’d have thought murder, falls under “Thou shall not kill” I’d of thought?

    Mike’s totally wild hysteria below is actually irrelevant, and is typical of what bullies do.

  • Enterprise1981

    Just saying that how a pre-warp civilization is defined according to ST:Enterprise episodes, and ST:FC serves to conflict with interactions with alien races at “20th century level of technological development”, which Angel One was described as. In the grand scheme of things, we can probably infer the Ornarans and Brekkians are warp capable species and the Bandi are exception since they are already aware of the existence of extra-terrestrial life.

    But where is Mike “wrong”? There are plenty instances where Federation personnel are to tread carefully regarding intervening in the affairs of warp-capable races.

    Picard in “Emissary”: “Your job is to everything possible, short of violating the Prime Directive to see that they are (the Bajorans ready for Federation membership.”

    Bashir, when he suspects that Sloan plans to assassinate the chairman of the Tal Shiar: “I must remind you interfering in the internal affairs of a sovereign power is expressly prohibited by the Federation Charter.”

    Sisko in “Apocalypse Rising”: “Our orders are to expose Gowron (as a Changeling spy), not assassinate him.”

    Again, it’s not expressly stipulated in the PD. But if it is, I would imagine Starfleet General Order One is a lengthy piece of legalese indicating how it applies to civilizations at varying stages of technological development. In “Bread and Circuses”, Spock rhetorically asked, “Then the Prime Directive is in FULL force?”

  • SJStar

    I think people are mostly mixing up the Prime Directive with Federation law or Federation Charter.

    You example of Picard is a little odd, but I’d assume it would have been not giving advanced technology to the Bajorans. Moreover, I think that Bajor was under special circumstances they were subjugated by the Cardassians before they developed warp technology, but as they were already exposed to other races, the prime directive never applied. (Had Bajorans ever gone beyond their Solar System before the Cardassians arrived?)

    Bashir comment is not about the Prime directive, but the Federation Charter, so it doesn’t necessarily apply.

    Exposing Gowron as a Changeling spy I don’t see how that relates to the Prime Directive. I.e. IIt could have been a moral choice or that they wanted to catch him.

    I read somewhere the Gene Roddenberry said the prime directive came from christian missionaries that corrupted ancient or less advanced cultures. Another is of course when humans were first contacted by the Vulcans, and who did not interfere until Cochran made the first human warp flight.

    I agree, though, it is sometimes a bit confusing, but I see it more relevant with episodes like TNG “Pen Pal” or Star Trek Insurrection (movie).

  • SJStar

    I read this Star Trek thread on the Prime Directive. It says absolutely nothing like what Mike here has said. Again I think there is a difference between the Prime Directive and the Federation Charter

    http://www.reddit.com/r/startrek/comments/1704lc/why_i_think_the_prime_directive_is_a_terrible/

    Also, according to a book by Giancarlo Genta, “Lonely Minds in the Universe: The Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence”. Published Springer, p. 208 (2007).

    As the right of each sentient species to live in accordance with its normal cultural evolution is considered sacred, no Star Fleet personnel may interfere with the normal and healthy development of alien life and culture. Such interference includes introducing superior knowledge, strength, or technology to a world whose society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely. Star Fleet personnel may not violate this Prime Directive, even to save their lives and/or their ship, unless they are acting to right an earlier violation or an accidental contamination of said culture. This directive takes precedence over any and all other considerations, and carries with it the highest moral obligation.

    This surely would not apply to the Klingons.

  • Enterprise1981

    In terms of bringing the Bajorans into the Federation, Federation and Starfleet didn’t try to encourage the Bajorans to renounce their religion. Picard’s conclusion that the Bajorans could have attacked a Federation colony because of their lack of warp capable ships. That doesn’t necessarily follow that they didn’t have faster-than-travel before the Occupation. Otherwise, where did the refugee colonies originate? Did the Cardassians forcibly relocate them there or were they first steps towards interstellar colonization (the Terok Nor trilogy suggested the latter).

    My underlying theory is that the PD does apply to warp-capable, but just differently from its application on pre-warp civilizations. At no point were the Bajorans openly encouraged to renounce their long-held religious beliefs while the Klingons continue to be a warrior culture even when they allies with the Federation.

  • Mike

    In fact, in many places the Prime Directive is used by name, even with regard to warp capable species. The Prime Directive is not really its name… it’s General Order One. And General Order One states:

    “No starship may interfere with the normal development of any alien life or society.”

    There is a difference between General Order One and first contact protocols. They certainly overlap, but SJStar is confusing them wholesale… and that’s just not accurate. Certainly planets and societies protected by FCP come under the purview of the prime directive, but the directive covers much, much more.

  • Mike

    You want to quote Memory Alpha… how cute…

    Did you also read the whole entry, or are you only interested in quoting the bits that support your idiocy?

    Under the section PROHIBITIONS… the last entry is “Interfering in the internal affairs of a society (TNG: “Symbiosis”, “Reunion”, “Redemption”, “Redemption II”, “The Price”; DS9: “The Circle”, “Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges”; VOY: “Thirty Days”) ”

    Hmmm… let’s look at what Symbiosis, Reunion, Redemption, The Price, DS9′s The Circle, Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges, and Thirty Days all have in common… and what they all don’t… They all have in common the interal workings of a foreign power, and doesn’t involve pre-warp civilizations.

    As for bringing up Star Trek Into Darkness as some sort of lifeline for yourself, don’t expose yourself as even more stupid than you already have… this is a review of Deep Space Nine… the Prime Timeline. So, the Prime Directive stems from the whole tradition of Star Trek, as I, and YOUR SOURCE of Memory Alpha actually just explained…

    Any other random, baseless attacks you want to make? I actually love it when you do them on Star Trek points… It’s so much easier to showcase what a total screwloose you are.

  • Mike

    Janeway expressly states that the Prime Directive has 47 sub-orders… The protocols regarding pre-warp and first contact are only part of it. He’s just trying to find something wrong in what I’ve said. It’s old news.

  • Mike

    Uhhhhhh, good for that book… Picard, Kirk, Sisko, and Janeway have all EXPLICITLY referenced the Prime Directive the EXACT way I have multiple times. The SOURCE YOU REFERENCED ALSO AGREES WITH ME. We can play pretend, though…

  • Mike

    You’re just wrong. Watch some Star Trek once in a while and pay attention to what’s actually onscreen rather than in your own twisted little mind, and it might be instructional.

  • Mike

    Pssst… can we stop calling it a theory? Star Trek has firmly established how the Prime Directive works and what it encompasses. That this jerk wants to pretend otherwise, his own source materials betray his argument.

    First Contact Protocols are part of the Prime Directive, but they are not the entirety of it, by any means. Earlier you mentioned that the Klingon Civil War wouldn’t have come under the notion of it. In fact, it did. Picard and the rest of Starfleet was unable to do anything actively for Gowron because it was an internal Klingon matter. That’s the WHOLE BLASTED REASON THEY SET UP THE NET FOR THE ROMULANS!!!! To prove outside interference in the internal affairs of state… Until that point, Picard could do nothing within the confines of the Empire itself to help Gowron. This isn’t hard to understand, and, in fact, it’s pretty hard to understand someone saying otherwise unless they’re just trying to be a contrarian douchebag… Hmmmmm… nevermind, it’s pretty simple, I guess.

  • Mike

    Typical of what bullies do. That’s pretty hilarious coming from someone who has gone out of his way in this review thread to come up with something I’ve said that’s wrong… and failed. You just don’t like that you’re wrong and that you can’t write enough to make yourself right… I suggest starting with a correct set of statements and facts, it’s usually helpful in being proven accurate and correct. Hysteria… lol

  • Mike

    It should be noted, Worf also murders Duras, but it isn’t murder since he was avenging his parmakai(sp?)… Picard certainly wasn’t happy about it, but he didn’t end up in a penal colony or Rura Penthe. As long as it isn’t seen as a matter of civil rights and access to equal opportunity, it seems societies are pretty much left alone, inside or outside the Federation…

  • SJStar

    I only said;

    “Are these not Starfleet laws not necessarily Federation laws? Worf’s commanding officer is to be surely Starfleet first.

    Also “Thou shall not kill” is a universal ethical law, and though you are allowed to kill, you can when defend oneself or euthanise suffering but only when you are left with no other options. Even the Klingons mostly, follow this too, but all see this in defending honour. I.e. Glory is honour.”

    Where does this say “That’s pretty hilarious coming from someone who has gone out of his way in this review thread to come up with something I’ve said that’s wrong.”

    1) I was replying to “Guest:” not you.
    2) I’ve said nothing in this reply about the prime directive.
    3) I’ve said nothing in this reply about you at all.

    Suggest you just get you facts straight.

  • Mike

    1. And I was replying to you.
    2. I didn’t say you said anything there about the Prime Directive.
    3. “Mike’s totally wild hysteria below is actually irrelevant, and is typical of what bullies do.” Not true.
    4. I have my facts straight. You’re suggesting there is some “universal” ethical law about not killing, and that’s just not even true here on Earth, let alone among other planets and species therein. You claim the Klingons don’t just kill each other, but there’s plenty of evidence that that’s exactly the main method of advancement aboard Klingon ships of the line… so, try again for the “universal” label… Or, you know, you can keep swinging wildly and not actually addressing anything.

  • SJStar

    Enterprise1981 said to me; “It was never explicitly stated the Prime Directive only applies to pre-warp civilizations.”

    I replied
    “According to Memory Alpha
    “Pre-warp civilization is a term used by the Federation to define any society that has not yet discovered and utilized faster-than-light space travel like the warp drive. Pre-warp cultures can range in technology level from extremely primitive to that of Earth in the mid-21st century. (Star Trek: First Contact)”

    and

    “”The Prime Directive of the Federation interdicts any disturbance of such civilizations, including any form of contact, until a culture has independently proven its warp-capability. Otherwise, any involvement in the development of pre-warp societies could result in the contamination of their culture, thereby altering their natural evolution. Usually pre-warp civilizations are limited to their homeworld. However, their technical abilities can be sophisticated enough to expand throughout their solar system. (ENT: “Dear Doctor”; Star Trek: Insurrection)”

    Therefore, Enterprise statement to me is actually false, because they have explicitly stated this.

    Moreover, this appears in the first five minutes of Star Trek is specifically on this issue.

    I.e. “The USS Enterprise is sent to observe Planet Nibiru, finding a volcano on the verge of erupting and wiping out its primitive inhabitants. During a mission to halt the eruption, first officer Spock’s life is jeopardized, forcing Kirk to break the “Prime Directive”, revealing the Enterprise to the planet’s civilization during Spock’s rescue. A number of indigenous people begin to worship the ship as it leaves. Called back to Earth, Kirk is demoted to First Officer and Admiral Pike re-assumes command of the Enterprise.”

    Clearly the evidence shows that I am correct in my statement, no matter with you pretend (or say otherwise.)

    Furthermore; “It was never explicitly stated the Prime Directive only applies to pre-warp civilizations.”

    I’ve just shown this statement to be incorrect.

  • Mike

    So, you’re going to ignore your own source. Nice. You’re really worthwhile.

  • Enterprise1981

    The point I made was the Prime Directive was not specifically mentioned in “Redemption, Parts 1 & 2″, though the reasoning for Starfleet not getting directly involved was consistent with the PD, to address SJ’s misconception, which I’m seeing as this discussion goes on, is more than just a misconception.

  • Enterprise1981

    That spoiler of “Into Darkness” only demonstrates how the PD is designed to protect pre-warp civilizations, not that the PD only applies to pre-warp civilizations.

  • SJStar

    Bingo.

    You said; “As soon as he actually looks up what the Prime Directive is and realizes how stupid he’s actually been…”

    Next you say;

    “2. I didn’t say you said anything there about the Prime Directive.”

    Either you quite delusional or you are plainly a liar. Your choice!

  • SJStar

    I think they explain that…

  • Mike

    Yep, exactly right. But, you’re trying to use reason. He keeps pointing to Memory Alpha, but refuses to read the entire page he’s directing us to. Were he to read it, he’d see he’s totally wrong.

    Not to mention the simple fact that he’s trying to use an alternate universe’s inception of the PD as somehow bringing anything to bear on the rest of ST… it doesn’t. Sisko and the rest of DS9 aren’t dealing with a Prime Directive created by Spock. To even reference that as the basis of the PD is DELUSIONAL… and really illustrates how we’re being stupid letting this troll spend any of our time.

    It really is a shame. SJStar actually did used to be a somewhat quality poster. Now? It’s like watching someone fade with dementia.

  • Mike

    Right… because I did bring up the Prime Directive, and you seem to think it has no bearing on what it actually does. As such, when you realize what it means and covers, you’ll realize it has everything to do with this discussion and realize, perhaps, just how damn dumb you really are… but, maybe not. Undoubtedly, if history has taught us anything, however, the thread will end with you having all your comments deleted by the moderator in a fit of pique… past is prologue.

  • Mike

    In TNG’s Symbiosis, season 1, episode 22… The episode where Merritt Butrick guests as the drug addict… Here’s a direct quotation from the episode:

    PICARD
    And the refinement process of
    which you are so proud was a way
    to make Felicium even more
    addicting… and tighten your
    grip on the Ornarans even further.

    LANGOR
    Are you going to tell them?

    PICARD
    No. I can’t tell them. You see,
    I am bound by the rules of the
    United Federation of Planets,
    which say I am not to interfere
    in other worlds, other cultures.
    To tell them any of this would
    be interfering and would violate
    the Prime Directive.

    Telling them or not had nothing to do with their warp capacity or lack thereof and had everything to do with the Prime Directive forbidding interference in the progress of other cultures.

    Do you actually feel yourself getting dumber the more evidence is thrown in your face? Or do you just get more bombastic and assured of your own delusions? Just curious…

  • SJStar

    It’s funny reading this review that at the end of DS9, Wolf has the choice of being the leader of the whole Klingon Empire, turns it down, and instead becomes the Federation Ambassador on Qo’noS . Through his experiences, he also know that unless he changes Klingon adversarial ways, they will likely become extinct — a path spoken of in the movie Star Trek VI by Spock. I think his human sensibilities have him at an advantage, and that he can change this for the better in understand Federation/human values.

    As for the human point of view, well Star Trek is supposed to be a window for our future, so it is presented from the human perspective. Sure it is almost xenophobic, and nearly everything is spoken in English language, with the humans have something additional than the rest of the alien civilisations lack. In the end it is just a series of entertain stories which each week has another perspective of the future. Sometimes they miss, sometimes they get it right. The Klingons are originally supposed the Soviet Union ‘savages’ against morally superior America nation. Wolf is a kind of the person trapped between both regimes. Somehow the Klingons slowly morphed into something else, who just had an evolving sense of duty and honour. (If they showed Star Trek form a Klingon perspective, it would never gather an audience, and the depicted violence would be unacceptable to most.)

    Picard got it right about Worf, when he admiringly said he was “the bravest man he’s known”, in which he meant he had no fear regardless of the situation he was facing.

    At least Klingons are fun and are cultural enough to enjoy Shakespeare. So they cannot be all bad.

    Note; If you think these Klingons are bad dudes, just wait to you see JJ’s take on them!

  • A_James

    Mike. Nice try. I really though you had SJStar, but you’ve got over confident and made a slight slip-up. You see you’ve missed it.
    The Omarans were pre-warp culture.

    I.e. It took them months to travel between planets in their Solar System. Hence, the Prime Directive was enforced.

    You’ve just made SJStar point. (Hope he is kind to you…)

  • Mike

    I didn’t make a slip up. I know they’re pre-warp. They, however, are not pre-first contact. The fact that they’re on the Enterprise itself suggests the Prime Directive, in the sense of not showing more advanced technology, clearly doesn’t apply… So, the only thing that applies about the Prime Directive is the fact that it’s about the internal circumstances of their people. What, if they had warp engines, somehow, that would’ve been okay for Picard to destroy their civilization?

    But that was just the quotation from the first episode from Memory Alpha on the subject. I didn’t think I’d actually have to go through and provide all the quotations that prove the Prime Directive isn’t just about pre-warp people, but I can…

    Here’s from the DS9 episode, The Circle… I presume we can all agree that the Cardassians, Bajorans, and the Federation are all warp capable species and beyond first contact protocols, right? Well, here’s the quote:

    CHEKOTE
    Damn. That’s a helluva turn.
    (sighs)
    How could these Bajorans get in bed
    with the Cardassians?

    SISKO
    They don’t even know the Cardassians
    are involved.

    CHEKOTE
    Then, you’re saying it’s a genuine
    political revolution internal to
    Bajor.

    Sisko knows where this is going, tries to head it off…

    SISKO
    Supported by the Cardassians.

    CHEKOTE
    But internal to Bajor. The
    Cardassians might involve themselves
    in other people’s civil wars. But
    we don’t. The Prime Directive
    applies, Ben.

    SJStar doesn’t have shit.

  • fainodraino

    The idiotic reviewer said…” I’ve always been ambivalent about the violent, patriarchal group-think of Klingon honor”

    You don’t like Klingon honor? What kind of Trek fan are you? And heaven forbid that an alien society have a patriarchal society. You’re a feminazi, so of course, all men and man-things are bad.

    You are a perfect example of the kind of nonsense that Roddenberry was trying to portray humanity getting past.

    Idiot.

  • A_James

    Proving what exactly?

    The Federation doesn’t interfere with other cultures as a matter of policy unless asked to do so, and then under the Federation laws decide what they should or shouldn’t do. Not interfering is a logical policy, but this does not limit having discussions or guiding them under that law.

    There is much confusion in the Prime Directive and what it truly implies, and its position has changed significantly through the various series or movies. Many producers, writers and directors who have used it in their plot lines, and have modified it to suit their needs. It is clear that it was mostly introduced to explain the difference between the present day where we have no contact with aliens species, and that this is only changed when they develop warp technology. After first contact, peoples of the Earth became part of a larger galactic community. They developed their own society, without political or social interference or significant technological adaptation by other cultures, until they were capable of standing on their own. From then, they are central involving forming the Federation of neighbouring cultures and civilisations, and from the experience developed the Prime Directive [first law] as a policy of non-interference or contact with developing or existing cultures — allowing them to naturally develop. Pre-warp cultures were the main motivation of the existing principle law. Like any rules, these change over time, depending on the circumstances, especially in times of war, etc. SJ has not contradicted this view as far as I see.

    Also I fail to see “…some people willing to blindly believe what he’s saying rather than rely on the obvious reality of 50 years of Star Trek.” Surely on a Star Trek site most people would have a fair idea of the subject and make decisions for themselves.

    I have read all the text here, and I read nothing at all to justify your personal attacks. Most here would honestly question your own motives, which seems more about your own ego or grandstanding — or even wanting some degree of acceptance to those reading the blogs on this site.

    As for “SJStar doesn’t have shit” is perplexing, because if he did he would not continue to post his point of view. These words again are more of your own motivations in attempts to diminish another’s point of view. Right or wrong, you do more damage to yourself every time you spit out this mostly unprovoked venom. “Poor jackass Mike”, indeed.

  • SJStar

    Oh dear… whatta slip up. Your credibility has been torn into little pieces.

    “Telling them or not had nothing to do with their warp capacity or lack thereof and had everything to do with the Prime Directive forbidding interference in the progress of other cultures.”

    You might want to rethink this statement.

    As for “SJStar doesn’t have shit…”, well that certainly now applies too you…

  • SJStar

    Wow. Clearly the above is the utter ravings of a madman. That someone could draw such a long bow from such a simple comment just confirms this view. You just look like someone out to prove is own dreary humdrum pitiful life is worthwhile, just by bullying and intimidating others who do not share one’s worldview. Don’t mess around this guy, we’re all below him.

  • Mike

    So, you two are just going to ignore the DS9 quotation. Expected. Nice.

  • Mike

    What do you mean, proving what?

    That quotation from DS9 proves that the Prime Directive deals with cultures and civilizations that are on the same interstellar footing as the Federation. The Cardassians, Bajorans, and Federation are all spacefaring races with warp. That the Admiral invokes the PRIME DIRECTIVE IS THE POINT.

    And, as for respect, we wouldn’t even be having this stupid debate if SJStar wasn’t going out of his way trying to find something wrong with what I said… and what he chose was just so far out there it’s laughable… But, somehow, you think he’s right… even when proven wrong. That’s cool. Just shows how unobjective you are on the subject. Oh well, you can lead a horse to water. I have proven the Prime Directive isn’t just about first contact or pre-warp civilizations, but if you two want to continue to pretend otherwise, that’s cool. You took the time to research the Omarans, but have no response when the Bajorans and Cardassians are the only ones involved… lol. TRANSPARENT.

  • Mike

    Yep, didn’t figure you’d respond to irrefutable evidence like the DS9 quotation. At least you’ve been a big boy and haven’t deleted your comments.

  • SJStar

    Here is the truth by an open fraud. “Mike” here is also “Guest” here, and he is duping everyone to think his words are supported, when they are nothing more than dog poo.

    A pretty low cowardly act from the minority of true low-life filth in America, and in this case Albuquerque, New Mexico.

  • SJStar

    You have no idea what you are saying. It just goes to show what an ignoramus you actually are.

    You can’t even bother to be ethical, duping everyone when you are “Guest” and “Mike.”

    You have been out and out proven as a fraud!