If you would like some good science fiction and social exploration in that medium to peruse, I recommend any number of titles by Warren Ellis. Transmetropolitan, Ocean, Ministry of Space, Planetary… while they have some of the tropes you mentioned that the comic medium tends toward, there’s a depth and joy to his speculation that I have not found anywhere else in comics. His flavor tends to change from one project to the next, but his speculative fiction is quite deep.

Again, though, comics have within them multiple genres, and can include science fiction. It may be conveyed differently than in television or prose form, but comic books are otherwise just a platform, if one that relies heavily on visual component.

Everything you said about DS9 and its pacing is why I love the series more than the other Trek ones!

Thanks again for clarifying your statement. In general, in the broad strokes, in terms of what most of the comic book market is, you are not wrong. The best books, I find, tend to have a much smaller market share than the flashy circus fare that dominates the medium.

In general, Trek followed a more methodical pace: & DS9 – though not averse to action sequences – was the slowest of the modern series. Which is why it bores so many fans of the other shows

Real comic books as opposed to graphic novels. Should have been clear from context (i was transitioning my argument from the later to the former). My apologies for that

Agreed that Asimov’s strength wasn’t his characterisation (in general – he could do it were inspiration caught him, as with Bayta & Arkady Darrell & Lige Bailey), it was the clarity of his prose & the complexity of the speculation. On the other hand, he didn’t write 180 stories with the same characters. That’s what a good, dramatic science fiction show can do – take what was in potentia in these works & turn it into something more

Just to repeat myself, i’m not dismissing about the potential of the comic medium – i’m talking about how it generally is: visually orientated; & without much subtlety in narrative (which is why the graphic novel form developed in the first place). The heroic figures in the form – Lee excepted; & he was more a executive producer than just a writer… same with JMS – have generally been painters or writer/painters… go to any comics convention & count how many writers are there. Then count the artists. You’re as free to love the form as i’m free not to – that’s not & never has been my argument. I am dismissing those people who equate science fiction & comic books as if they were the same genre. They aren’t & never have been

And in all fairness, Asimov was pretty shit when it came to characterization. That’s fine; his speculative explorations are no less quality science fiction for it. Yes, there are tons of crap comics out there… but there’s also tons of crap television and science fiction.

What, by the way, marks “real comics” from “not real comics”? The single issue format versus collections? The superhero genre versus all the rest? Why should the work Jeff Lemire has done on a critically acclaimed title such as ‘Sweet Tooth’ be considered any different from his work on ‘Frankenstein, Agent of S.H.A.D.E?’

You can no more lump ‘all comics’ into one category than you can ‘all television’ or ‘all books’. Comics have their Rob Liefelds, Books have their Stephanie Meyers, and television has its Brannon Bragas. You don’t have to like comics, and I’m not forcing you to read them, but you are wrong about the capabilities of the medium.

(Not so long ago, a comic book podcaster linked with approval to a defense of continuous reboots which argued that it was easier to retell a previous story over again rather than create a new & interesting development of the story at the point the last film left it. If comic books – & the films based on them – were meant to be fictions rather than paintings, would that argument even be possible much less seem sensible?)

As such, they’re much more closely related to art than fiction; & graphic novels are the top end of the market. When you get to real comics, the stories – by definition – are even weaker. You may – & often do – get intricate plotting; but the kind of character development i praised in The Wire can’t appear in them almost by definition. Similarly, you can’t get a simple story subtly told (as The Wire ultimately is – my friend is in trouble; i have to help him but he keeps lying to me about the problem) because a comics writer can’t control the length & more importantly rhythm of the story-telling

So, yes, i do know what i’m talking about. Some graphic novels – & yes, comic books – are glorious to look at; but as fiction, they’re rarely subtle reading. Neither are they science fiction (at best they may use science fiction props; but the speculation & extrapolation which marks classical SF is missing), apart a few which could be described as dystopian – & even these have the curious habit of appearing to advocate the kind of vigilante thinking which created the dystopia in the first. If stating this is being divisive then perhaps division is called for; because this is one science fiction fan whose tired of being told that he should like these glossy, characterisationless extravaganzas just because they happen to based on something culturally significant like the Avengers

I find your comment regarding the medium to be both dirisive and uneducated. On that same note, it is easy to lament the weakening of science fiction as a genre proper when we have to contend with the mindless Star Wars prequels and James Cameron’s schlockfest Avatar, who’ve given science fiction a bad name by comparison. Even the new Star Trek movie was all action, little substance, and zero science or social examination… like popcorn, it was tasty and easy to enjoy but otherwise only filled us with empty calories.

THIS. This is exactly how I felt, and how I feel about this episode. At the time it first aired I was kind of frustrated with it. We finally get all sorts of interesting backstory for Garak, and just when it feels like we’re starting to put together the pieces of the puzzle, we find out its all a pack of lies.

When I first saw this episode that aspect of it made me CRAZY. But later, looking back (and rewatching) I recognized it was total genius.

But no matter how you feel about the script, its impossible not to love Andy Robinson’s performance. He is masterful, as always.

And of course that snippet of dialog. “It’s all true.” “Even the lies?” “Especially the lies.” That is Garak in a nutshell.

(Development in itself is neither a plus or a minus, either. Perhaps the best-loved character in Trek didn’t develop one iota from first TV appearance to last film glimpse – De’s Bones McCoy – but its what Niners like about this crazy show)

The story belongs on the urban streets; but setting it on a space station at the frontier of empire gives it a compassionate distance that contemporary stories struggle to achieve. It’s easier to empathise with Garak’s situation because his crimes are against the Bajora rather than with a street kid whose violence turns up on reality news. Its easier to make Tain such a charming pimp because – as a Cardassian – his street-look doesn’t conform to the cliches of urban prejudice. But The Wire is a true story that people close their eyes in real life made visible because its told in surreal life. Its classic, true science fiction of the Asimov-Clarke school; & viewing it again reminds me again what i hate the dishonest equation of science fiction & comic book. Science fiction – not SybloodyFy – is fiction… comic books are just painting

This doesn’t mean, by the way, that others have to like it. DS9 is different, so naturally its audience is smaller. But The Wire – & DS9 – is what media science fiction can be; & only once was